TopTal: why don't they allow companies/teams?

anovikov

On Upwork already, most agencies/companies are hidden: they operate as a network of seemingly independent freelancer profiles, with these people being merely figureheads with the puppeteer remaining in the shadow, and actual work being done by people who are also never shown anyone. But there is also an opportunity to work in the open and some people do it, and these two modes of operation appear to be in the balance (many agencies do both and admit there are pros and cons in either). I for example, work only in the open but it's simply because i don't do hourly at all, and for fixed price, agency operations on Upwork involve no market handicap.

Why doesn't TopTal allow agencies? They prefer to pretend to their clients that the work is always done only by individuals, even as they know it's not the case? I know some TopTal agencies... always in the shadow just because there's no other way there.

Tiffany

So...your argument is that because some freelancers choose to actively deceive and cheat clients, there should be no rules?

anovikov

My argument is that something that everyone knows exists and will exist anyway, better exists in the open and is regulated. Exactly to prevent deception. Otherwise it becomes a deception in itself: TopTal effectively scams their clients making them believe they are working with individuals, while knowing they in fact aren't.

Also, it's always been a natural way of progression of freelancers career: get a team under you once you hit the limit of individual earnings. Every good IT person makes a lot of money by the time they turn 35-40 or so, who will work for salary if they can do better? People may pretend that others are locked into wage slavery but they know it's not indeed the case.

Tiffany

@"anovikov" That makes no sense. Their service has no value if people are working in clusters, secretly or otherwise. Your argument seems kind of like saying that since people drive drunk anyway, we should repeal the criminal statute and let people have at it.

I suppose they could have a separate section for agencies that wouldn't really get any business, but if you're right that people are doing that deceptively they would almost certainly continue to do so since they would know that their chances of landing jobs would plummet if they were working as an agency.

anovikov

Why do you think they won't get any business as agencies? I mean, on Upwork agencies get a lot of business. Only terrible inconvenience of doing hourly according to their rules - opening a separate account for every employee and separate contract for every client and billing them all separately - i can't imagine a real life client going through the pain of doing it - pushes people to work in the shadow. With fixed price projects, there's no need to deceive anyone on Upwork and agencies get them just as easily as individual freelancers.
Why that will be any different on TopTal?

Tiffany

Well, I know that on Upwork there are a huge number of clients who won't consider agencies, and that there are a lot of freelancers hiding the fact that they're operating as agencies (as you say they are on TopTal) because they know clients don't want to be assigned a rando to work with.

And clients who go to TopTal presumably choose it for a reason--and the big point of differentiation is the vetting. So if you're selective about who you're working with, you're going to be even more unlikely to roll the dice on an agency.

If TopTal started allowing agencies, it would be like a flashing banner that said "Your chances of getting a qualified freelancer are no better here than anywhere else," and they've built their whole business model on claiming those chances ARE better.

Eve

Tiffany Well, I know that on Upwork there are a huge number of clients who won't consider agencies

I'm one of them. Working with agencies is the worst. I've done it on a few occasions (because someone else hired them), and it's always a nightmare.

anovikov

I wonder if people have the same impression of mine :)
i can't see how service we provide, can be provided by an individual.

Tiffany

I think the issue is that a lot of clients want to choose the individual doing each task. As you point out, it's more work for them, but if they are interested in quality they don't want to just talk to one person and then have their work handed off to a bunch of people they didn't select.

anovikov

Tiffany in my case, most clients won't even be able to understand work done on the level of tasks. Because we don't just "do work" but also provide technology we developed in-house...

Tiffany

anovikov It sounds like you're an outlier because you're selling services through freelancing platforms but you are not a freelancer and you're not even selling pass-through freelancing services. These platforms weren't designed for companies like yours. If they work for you, great, but the rules are going to be built around freelancing since that's the platform's bread and butter.

anovikov

Tiffany Well i am myself a freelancer in a sense that "i am able to do most of what my people are doing and i am competent enough to define technical solutions for my clients, and sometimes to even partially implement them, even as i'm too lazy to do it on a regular basis". I am not just a salesman, i'm an engineer.

anovikov

Tiffany But essentially, i didn't get what you mean. That is, how is my company different from any other Upwork agency that has some narrow specialisation (which every half-decent agency has to have because it's the only way to avoid bidding wars in race to the bottom).

Tiffany

anovikov Being a freelancer has nothing whatsoever to do with skills--it's a way of working. An engineer in year 20 at GM has the skills, but they're not a freelancer.

I'm a freelancer. I write and provide related consulting services, hard stop. My clients hire me when they are looking for a writer with a particular set of skills and knowledge. I don't sell them technology. I don't bring in a team. They contract with me to write and advise and I personally write and advise.

You, based on what you've said here, are a business offering a combination of underlying technology and a team to make it work. Your team aren't even freelancers, or at least aren't freelancing for the client, because they're working for you.

anovikov

But isn't it how every agency on Upwork operates? They hire local staff in their country, pay them fixed salaries (because it's cheap), have someone who manages them, then sell them on Upwork.

Tiffany

anovikov Yes and no. That's the structure, but often the agency is just a collection of freelancers each offering an individual service.

That also brings us back a bit to where we started--many Upwork clients don't want to work with agencies precisely because of that model. If someone is looking to hire a pre-assembled team, they usually (obviously not always) search for an agency directly rather than going to a freelancing platform.

Do you market your services outside platforms?

anovikov

No i don't, while sometimes clients just walk in. I have no idea how to do it lmao. If you can teach me how, i'll give you a nice commission way above Upwork's :D
In my experience, offline clients tend to be savvy and very hard to make any money on.

rlatief

TopTal: why

I'm guessing it's their strategy/decision, that (most likely based on data) they decided the profits from clients lured by the idea of "individual freelancers" will outweigh the drawbacks of still "allowing" groups to work (keeping a close eye). IIRC Upwork does many similar things.

anovikov

rlatief So just as i said, "because this is a scam". It's either service providers scam clients, or TopTal itself does.

rlatief

The "scam!" will be yelled-out when one of the 3 parties faces some major issues.

I'd call such things as rule-bending, rubber-terms, grey area, instead of scam. It's not always bad. There was a thread in the Upwork forum where a client complained about paying (contract ended) for a plagiarized logo from a reputable provider. In the end, Upwork seemed to allow the client to hire another designer at their expense (although they can simply say "you approved it already"). I've seen similar things not just on Upwork, other platforms have also "bent" their stated rules, and take a loss, to keep (some/selected) users happy.

Just know that running an agency on TopTal (if you do) gives them a reason to kick you out if they need to :D

anovikov

rlatief It's not me and in any case, "them" is a very vague term for those people. What's 'them' if it's a network of accounts operating from rented servers in different parts of the world?